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WHAMNo, this is not a spin off of the animal posts, but more along the lines of the Tucson shooting and the porn posts.
Are parents always to blame for their *adult* child's behaviour/actions?
Are the child's actions always a reflection of their upbringing?
This stems from an ariticle I read a night or two ago (I'll have to go find it again) about the parents of Jared Loughner. The title was something like "Shooting Suspect Parents in the Spotlight" and it was questioning his upbringing.
Additionally, in the porn post there were many that said they hope their DD would never do such a thing (work at Hooters, dance at a strip club, participate in porn vidoe, etc) and would really question themselves on how they raised their DD and what went wrong.
But after a child leaves the house, can you really dictate what they do? I know we all hope that we raise our children to be the best they can be, to be polite, generous and so forth. We hope we instill morals and values. But sometimes things go on a different path - they meet new people who will have a new influence on them.
When I was in college I was working for at a telemarket place. It didnt' last long, but while there I met a girl who was a year or two older than me and worked as a cocktail waitress at a very high end gentleman's club. We became friends and I eventually met a few "dancers". To this day I am still friends with 2 of them and both were, honestly, paying their way through college. One is now a Physicians Assistant and doing very well. The other is also doing very well, married with 2 kids. Both came from non-broken homes and had good upbringing. One of the girls even went to church quite regularly (even while she was dancing). They found that 'dancing' was the quickest and easiest way to make a lot of money. I know these two are exceptions, but my point is - even with the best upbringing some children will make decisions that are against the parents beliefs.
I know as parents if our child(ren) do something, good or bad, it can often be a reflection of our parenting. But is there a line - when its the decision of the child and really does not have any reflection on the parent?
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- by SeaChele
- Posts 5060
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:19 am
~Chele
- by oldtimer
- Posts 1599
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:26 am
I think this brings up the nature vs nurture debate.
Are his parent's responsible for what he did? No, they didn't pull the trigger or plan such an event. From what I've read his mother has been in bed crying since the tragedy. They in no way wanted this to happen.
The question comes down to: Were there signs that he was mentally unstable? Did they do all they could do to get him help? Remember he's over 18 so I believe the most they could do is get him into a 72 hour hold.
Even if THEY didn't do anything it seems as though there were tons of people who were aware of his erratic beheaviour and did nothing. Are they to blame too?
I say no. Parent's are not to blame for their adult child's behaviour.
Are his parent's responsible for what he did? No, they didn't pull the trigger or plan such an event. From what I've read his mother has been in bed crying since the tragedy. They in no way wanted this to happen.
The question comes down to: Were there signs that he was mentally unstable? Did they do all they could do to get him help? Remember he's over 18 so I believe the most they could do is get him into a 72 hour hold.
Even if THEY didn't do anything it seems as though there were tons of people who were aware of his erratic beheaviour and did nothing. Are they to blame too?
I say no. Parent's are not to blame for their adult child's behaviour.
Addison- 6 and Judah- 4
- by hannahq
- Posts 8329
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:43 am
No way. People have their own free will. I would say that if the parents are doing something that causes sociopathic behaviour (like locking kids in closets, keeping them away from people, hurting or abusing them, etc) then yes, they are to blame. If the child grows up and is mentally ill, I think the parents have an obligation to try and get their child help, but you can't force someone to do something.
I read somewhere that it was (supposedly) because of rejection from women on-line that caused a switch to flip. I think that that switch was already flipped and a combination of things set him off. What can you do for a grown adult you know to be mentally unstable? They need help, can you force them to get it?
I read somewhere that it was (supposedly) because of rejection from women on-line that caused a switch to flip. I think that that switch was already flipped and a combination of things set him off. What can you do for a grown adult you know to be mentally unstable? They need help, can you force them to get it?
Susanna, mom to H(2005) and A(2008) and baby R!! 7/26/2011
- by Sonya!
- Posts 1288
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:58 am
finally i can log back into babyzone its taken weeks agh!!!
no i dont think that parents are always to blame however if someone as an adult does something considered terrible such as murder i think it is important to look towards their upbringing to give you an idea of where they came from.
as a parent i think its hard not to blame yourself for their bad decisions.
even though there are only two strip clubs in my whole county and its not really a sought after job here lol if ash turned to stripping to pay bills i would question myself. i would rather work my fingers to the bone than to have her do that.
fwiw i had a pretty crummy upbringing but i have always said i have to make my own decisions as an adult and not use that as an excuse. i personally am to blame for my actions but my parents do own some blame in the person i have become if that makes sense
no i dont think that parents are always to blame however if someone as an adult does something considered terrible such as murder i think it is important to look towards their upbringing to give you an idea of where they came from.
as a parent i think its hard not to blame yourself for their bad decisions.
even though there are only two strip clubs in my whole county and its not really a sought after job here lol if ash turned to stripping to pay bills i would question myself. i would rather work my fingers to the bone than to have her do that.
fwiw i had a pretty crummy upbringing but i have always said i have to make my own decisions as an adult and not use that as an excuse. i personally am to blame for my actions but my parents do own some blame in the person i have become if that makes sense
- by Niccakolio
- Posts 9297
Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:36 pm
Sometimes I believe the parents are at least partly to blame. Abused children sometimes don't know right from wrong as far as violence, expectations, etc. and some children grow up with untreated mental illness that their parents could have done more about, and should have, if they noticed anything awry. But in the end, the individual makes the choices they make, and it is always their fault.
Can't even blame Sarah Palin for this one, I'm afraid.
Can't even blame Sarah Palin for this one, I'm afraid.
My loves: Ethan, Aidan, Julian, Audrey and Silas
- by joyful1
- Posts 7860
Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:57 pm
Niccakolio wrote:Sometimes I believe the parents are at least partly to blame. Abused children sometimes don't know right from wrong as far as violence, expectations, etc. and some children grow up with untreated mental illness that their parents could have done more about, and should have, if they noticed anything awry. But in the end, the individual makes the choices they make, and it is always their fault.
Can't even blame Sarah Palin for this one, I'm afraid.
ITA. There comes a time where the apron strings are cut and we as individuals are responsible for our own actions.
~Cori
Oh, snap!
Oh, snap!
- by Ninjakitty
- Posts 6556
Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm
If his parents helped him, then yes. If they spent his childhood preparing him for an event such as this then ... eh.. probably. I'd lean towards yes. If they didn't hug him enough? Not really, no.
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- by embee_BZCL
- Posts 2558
Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:27 pm
Niccakolio wrote:Sometimes I believe the parents are at least partly to blame. Abused children sometimes don't know right from wrong as far as violence, expectations, etc. and some children grow up with untreated mental illness that their parents could have done more about, and should have, if they noticed anything awry. But in the end, the individual makes the choices they make, and it is always their fault.
Can't even blame Sarah Palin for this one, I'm afraid.
Some people have a very warped sense of reality due to a poor upbringing, so in some senses that can be the parents' "fault", but the adult child owns at least some of the responsibility for their choices too, even in those circumstances. Many people are able to overcome a poor upbringing and become productive members of society, while others who have a "perfect" childhood become a menace. There are many other factors at play too...
- by threehere3there
- Posts 1962
Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:42 pm
I think we have to take some responsibility for the things our children do as adults but I certainly don't think we should beat ourselves with a regret stick. I am talking about parents who truly think they have done all they can to raise honest, law abiding, right choice making adults. Parents who have tried and loved and taught who still have children hell bent on making wrong choices. I can absolutely look at Sophie and see where I might have done thing differently, that said she has only ever made choices that hurt her, she has never harmed anyone else.
I think parents who treat their children worse than many of us would expect to treat a dog should be held partially responsible, I watched a crime show about young teens that had killed, without exception they all came from homes where they had been at best neglected and more often than not abused, kicked and hit and told repeatedly that they are worthless, stupid, ugly, a mistake, not wanted etc throw in some bullying at school ( and these kids are almost always bullied, poorly dressed, socially inept, prime targets for the mean kids) and where do they go? How do they make their mark on the world? HOw long before they snap and retaliate and do something so awful? One kids was taped being interviewed after shooting several school mates and he said " NOW I will be remembered! NOW let them tell me I'll never be nothing" THAT is a result of his parents drumming it in to him that he was worthless and would never amount to anything etc.
I think parents who treat their children worse than many of us would expect to treat a dog should be held partially responsible, I watched a crime show about young teens that had killed, without exception they all came from homes where they had been at best neglected and more often than not abused, kicked and hit and told repeatedly that they are worthless, stupid, ugly, a mistake, not wanted etc throw in some bullying at school ( and these kids are almost always bullied, poorly dressed, socially inept, prime targets for the mean kids) and where do they go? How do they make their mark on the world? HOw long before they snap and retaliate and do something so awful? One kids was taped being interviewed after shooting several school mates and he said " NOW I will be remembered! NOW let them tell me I'll never be nothing" THAT is a result of his parents drumming it in to him that he was worthless and would never amount to anything etc.
 Mum to Dan, Jordan, Sophie, Seth, Isaac and Elijah.   Â
- by Dee-Cajungaltx
- Posts 4760
Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:01 pm
No.
Actually - unless your dealing with a child - even in cases where the child grew up in abusive/unhealthy/mentally screwed up family - I don't believe the parents are to blame.
My parents are alcoholics. SERIOUS alcoholics. They are racists to a degree you would NOT believe. I've dealt with abuse issues - from watching my dad hit my mom....watching my brother hit his wife....sexual abuse... the crap that went on in my family's home is something that I would never want to subject my daughters to. Based on environment - I should be an abused crack whore who has a drinking problem. ;-)
But at a certain point, I had to recognize that their choices did not have to be MY choices.
Most of the time the person committing the crimes doesn't blame their parents....the people creating the defense uses that to excuse the behavior.
The one thing that I've read about the guy who did the shooting - is that he had an issue with alcohol poisoning in high school - which, unfortunately - might give a medical reason for the issue....brain damage.
I know parents who have their first child....usually a natural leader....makes good grades in school....does amazing.... so the parents have a second child... and that child is hell spawn... in trouble in school.... all kinds of stuff...and the parents wonder what in the heck is wrong with that kid....and other people look at them out in public....or know them from where ever and wonder 'what is wrong with those parents???'... I've read stuff about birth order - and it's amazing how there is a consistent type of behavior based on birth order that blew my mind.
So no - I don't blame the parents. Not one bit.
Actually - unless your dealing with a child - even in cases where the child grew up in abusive/unhealthy/mentally screwed up family - I don't believe the parents are to blame.
My parents are alcoholics. SERIOUS alcoholics. They are racists to a degree you would NOT believe. I've dealt with abuse issues - from watching my dad hit my mom....watching my brother hit his wife....sexual abuse... the crap that went on in my family's home is something that I would never want to subject my daughters to. Based on environment - I should be an abused crack whore who has a drinking problem. ;-)
But at a certain point, I had to recognize that their choices did not have to be MY choices.
Most of the time the person committing the crimes doesn't blame their parents....the people creating the defense uses that to excuse the behavior.
The one thing that I've read about the guy who did the shooting - is that he had an issue with alcohol poisoning in high school - which, unfortunately - might give a medical reason for the issue....brain damage.
I know parents who have their first child....usually a natural leader....makes good grades in school....does amazing.... so the parents have a second child... and that child is hell spawn... in trouble in school.... all kinds of stuff...and the parents wonder what in the heck is wrong with that kid....and other people look at them out in public....or know them from where ever and wonder 'what is wrong with those parents???'... I've read stuff about birth order - and it's amazing how there is a consistent type of behavior based on birth order that blew my mind.
So no - I don't blame the parents. Not one bit.
 Just barely this side of sane. Just warning you. Happily married...sometimes....mom of 2 amazing girls, coffee addicted right winger.
- by mommy2elijah
- Posts 2463
Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:02 pm
What parents are responsible for are whatever hurdles they give their children to overcome. Some children are abused, neglected, and mistreated. Some children are enabled, given a sense of entitlement, and not given reasonable enough responsibilities (I can barely stomach watching Super Sweet 16). Some don't have decent role models within the home and have to learn how to seek them out on their own. There are lots of ways to fail our children. But my pain never justifies inflicting pain on another person. Upbringing may offer insight as to why a person behaves the way they do, but never a scapegoat. There comes a time when we're all responsible for putting on our big girl panties and taking responsibility for who we are, who we can become, and the things we do.
Could my life have been made easier with a different upbringing? Yes, for sure. But I'm not incapable of rising above all that and I'm certainly not allowed to drag other people down with me if I'm unwilling to take control of my own life.
Could my life have been made easier with a different upbringing? Yes, for sure. But I'm not incapable of rising above all that and I'm certainly not allowed to drag other people down with me if I'm unwilling to take control of my own life.
3 angels, Ashley, Elijah's twin Alison, and Baby October.
- by virgomommy2
- Posts 806
Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:54 pm
No parent's are not always to blame. I think it's easier to point fingers when there is no other explanation though...and parents are in the line of fire.
I was abused by my birth mother for the first 7 years of my life. I was left abandoned by her. I could EASILY use that as an excuse now that I am an adult to not strive to rise above that. I could have held my anger and turned it inside of myself and allowed myself to become the victim. I could have become the monster that she was.
But somewhere, deep inside I found a strength. It was that strength that made me rise above her and forgive her and become the responsible, caring person I am today.
Sometimes people don't have that strength though. Do I blame the parents for that lack of strength? No.
I was abused by my birth mother for the first 7 years of my life. I was left abandoned by her. I could EASILY use that as an excuse now that I am an adult to not strive to rise above that. I could have held my anger and turned it inside of myself and allowed myself to become the victim. I could have become the monster that she was.
But somewhere, deep inside I found a strength. It was that strength that made me rise above her and forgive her and become the responsible, caring person I am today.
Sometimes people don't have that strength though. Do I blame the parents for that lack of strength? No.
"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future" ~Deepak Chopra
- by naanejna
- Posts 103
Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:17 pm
In general, no they are not to blame.
Unless there is abuse or very poor parenting skills, I tend to feel bad for the parents of teens and young adults who commit terrible crimes. There are influences outside of the home and things happen that we as parents will never know. You can have a feeling that something is wrong, and do your best to help, but at what point do you think, my child is so bad they are going to go kill a bunch of people. If anything the friends are more responsible because I think most people would tell their friends what they are thinking before their parents.
Unless there is abuse or very poor parenting skills, I tend to feel bad for the parents of teens and young adults who commit terrible crimes. There are influences outside of the home and things happen that we as parents will never know. You can have a feeling that something is wrong, and do your best to help, but at what point do you think, my child is so bad they are going to go kill a bunch of people. If anything the friends are more responsible because I think most people would tell their friends what they are thinking before their parents.
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- by mum2one
- Posts 2898
Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:40 pm
Blame, no. Responsibility? I'd say sometimes. For example, when I was student teaching 4th grade, there was a student with behavior issues. It was clear from things he talked about doing at home, that other students told teachers he did at home, things he drew in school, that the child is mentally ill. However, when talked to, the parents said things like "Oh, boys will be boys", "That isn't a big deal", "That's a typical thing for boys!" Uh, no, no it isn't. (I'm not going into details but please trust that these were NOT "typical" things.
In his case, yes I would think that his hold some responsibility. They have been being told, that I KNOW of, since the child was in kindergarten that he needs help, that the things he does aren't normal. Especially if he does something horrid at a young age, like the guy who is accused of the AZ shootings.
So I really think it depends.
In his case, yes I would think that his hold some responsibility. They have been being told, that I KNOW of, since the child was in kindergarten that he needs help, that the things he does aren't normal. Especially if he does something horrid at a young age, like the guy who is accused of the AZ shootings.
So I really think it depends.
- by Valorian
- Posts 9229
Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:30 pm
SeaChele wrote:Are parents always to blame for their *adult* child's behaviour/actions?
Are the child's actions always a reflection of their upbringing?
<br/><br/>
Always? Not necessarily. If the parents see something going on and don't at least talk to their adult child though then I can see how they could carry some blame.
A lot of the time yes, actions are a reflection of upbringing. However, there is a big "nature" factor to it as well. But in general, when kids grow up, they tend to act how they saw their parents act. I do believe there are studies done to support that idea but I'm not positive and can't look right now.
- by raaynn
- Posts 683
Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:39 pm
We have been dealing with my brothers mental illness for several years now. We have YET to get him on even a 72 hour hold. While he has never been violent, my kids are not allowed around him. He has had a drug prolem and now found a local pill pusher to perscribe him some powerful anti anxiety drugs, im sure you know what im talking about. He is uncapapble of taking care of himself, to the point of comming out of the shower with dry hair and complaining that he doesnt understand why his hair isnt clean. He has been diagnosed bipolar and even though he takes meds he is a nutcake IMO, and my parents raised him well. He is mentally ill, it has nothing to do with how he was raised. This all started about age 20 hes now 26. He was into sports, got decent grades, had friends, got a job, ect......... then everythig changed. It is scary because other than the previous acts of minor violence, this guy sounded alot like my brother. My brother also gets super depressed immediately after an argument with my dad or mom, usually over meds, my brother wants to use more than is perscribed. This guy got into an argument right before he did this as well. Just because my brothr can pull himself together for a sigle doc appt doesnt mean he is not very mentally ill. He has changed docs and found one that will perscribe without a visit. The other doc, he hauled 3 wheelbarrows of GRAVEL into her office and said they were diamonds and rubies and that he was going to pay her with them. Yeah, THAT didnt get him a psych hold believe it or not. So to say this guys friends could have done more is a bit judgemental. In reality, they probaly could not have done more. it is sad, they whole thing, i fel so bad for his parents knowing just a taste of what they have been dealing with for the past few years. It was not the parents fault, or vidoe games, or talk radio. It was insanity, plain and simple.
Heather DS Kael 9 DS Liam 8  DS Tate 6 DD Hali 4 DD Camila 2Â
- by Deborah_BZCL
- Posts 17292
Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:28 pm
I don't see why a lot of people cannot be a little bit responsible for something or someone. It isn't an either/or.
I read No Right to Remain Silent last year (it is by Lucinda Roy, who was a professor at Virginia Tech during the mass shooting there). There are problems with the book (I think she had a difficult time taking herself out of the situation), but I recommend it to people who are interested in the issue, "So, what is the responsibility of the various adults who interact with someone who appears to be mentally ill and possibly violent?" It is an interesting read.
I read No Right to Remain Silent last year (it is by Lucinda Roy, who was a professor at Virginia Tech during the mass shooting there). There are problems with the book (I think she had a difficult time taking herself out of the situation), but I recommend it to people who are interested in the issue, "So, what is the responsibility of the various adults who interact with someone who appears to be mentally ill and possibly violent?" It is an interesting read.
Happy birthday, littlest littles.
- by mdesi
- Posts 5657
Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:07 pm
Honestly, I don't think adults can lay the blame of their actions at their parents' feet. The cycle would never end b/c most people learn parenting from their own parents, so the grandparents, great grandparents , etc. would also have to bear responsibility.
It is hard for us to not want to bear the blame for an adult's actions as parents or loved ones of the person involved. There are always the "if I did this, s/he would not have done that." Or, I saw this sign, and if I only had said/did this word/action, the course of events would have been different. But, that is not reality. The reality is that most people make their own decisions, and have to live by the consequences of them, and will not change this decision based on one thing, or even a group of actions.
We all want to make sense of bad things. We all want to rationaliuze it, find ways that the thing was "part of the plan" or a consequence of a Karmic scoreboard. It helps us deal with it. However, adults make their own decisions. The mentally ill make decisions that have nothing to do with upbringing. They just have their own rationalizations.
It is hard for us to not want to bear the blame for an adult's actions as parents or loved ones of the person involved. There are always the "if I did this, s/he would not have done that." Or, I saw this sign, and if I only had said/did this word/action, the course of events would have been different. But, that is not reality. The reality is that most people make their own decisions, and have to live by the consequences of them, and will not change this decision based on one thing, or even a group of actions.
We all want to make sense of bad things. We all want to rationaliuze it, find ways that the thing was "part of the plan" or a consequence of a Karmic scoreboard. It helps us deal with it. However, adults make their own decisions. The mentally ill make decisions that have nothing to do with upbringing. They just have their own rationalizations.
- by cherrytea
- Posts 11181
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:10 pm
i don't think parents are always to blame at all.
I have one brother who is a hard worker, owns his own business and home, etc. He drinks very socially, if at all. I have another brother, severe alcoholic, has a criminal record, abuser, racist etc. He is not allowed in my house and we limit any time our kids have with him.
the three of us were raised by the exact same two parents. My dad was hard on us (and he's an alcoholic too). i can't think of three kids raised by the same family who are as different as the three of us. Did my parents make mistakes, oh heck yah...but i don't blame my father for the crap that my brother has done, at all.
I have one brother who is a hard worker, owns his own business and home, etc. He drinks very socially, if at all. I have another brother, severe alcoholic, has a criminal record, abuser, racist etc. He is not allowed in my house and we limit any time our kids have with him.
the three of us were raised by the exact same two parents. My dad was hard on us (and he's an alcoholic too). i can't think of three kids raised by the same family who are as different as the three of us. Did my parents make mistakes, oh heck yah...but i don't blame my father for the crap that my brother has done, at all.
- by Hols<3Autumn
- Posts 365
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:57 pm
I worked at Hooters.
My upbringing was pretty bad but it had nothing to do with my decision to work there.
I don't think parents are always to blame. Some of the crappiest people come from great families, with normal siblings. I think some people just get some funky wiring.
I do think SOME bad people come from bad parents, but not all.
My upbringing was pretty bad but it had nothing to do with my decision to work there.
I don't think parents are always to blame. Some of the crappiest people come from great families, with normal siblings. I think some people just get some funky wiring.
I do think SOME bad people come from bad parents, but not all.
Holly
- by Mischa&Kaya's Mommy
- Posts 2016
Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:34 am
mommy2elijah wrote:What parents are responsible for are whatever hurdles they give their children to overcome. Some children are abused, neglected, and mistreated. Some children are enabled, given a sense of entitlement, and not given reasonable enough responsibilities (I can barely stomach watching Super Sweet 16). Some don't have decent role models within the home and have to learn how to seek them out on their own. There are lots of ways to fail our children. But my pain never justifies inflicting pain on another person. Upbringing may offer insight as to why a person behaves the way they do, but never a scapegoat. There comes a time when we're all responsible for putting on our big girl panties and taking responsibility for who we are, who we can become, and the things we do.
Could my life have been made easier with a different upbringing? Yes, for sure. But I'm not incapable of rising above all that and I'm certainly not allowed to drag other people down with me if I'm unwilling to take control of my own life.
<br/><br/>
I couldn't agree more.
Kendell
Proud Mommy to Misha (1-16-2006) and Kaya (12-25-2009)
Proud Mommy to Misha (1-16-2006) and Kaya (12-25-2009)