Christmas & Religion

Phronsie_BZCL wrote:

A lot of interesting stuff in this thread.  It's amazing what you find when you read early church history.
 
I, too, as a pp stated, believe there is no hell as being preached by Christian (and other) religions.  Hell was a concept added on much later in church teachings.  It can be said the early church taught universal reconciliation, in which everyone and everything is reconciled to God, meaning everyone is saved in the end.  I believe in a God that would not snuff out the majority of His creation because He made it imperfect.  I believe in a God who made us imperfect purposely so that we could understand unconditional, "agape" love.
 
FWIW, I personally believe the date Jesus was born was very specific as His birth had to fulfill prophecy and scripture in a very specific way by aligning with the Jewish feast days.  That could only have been accomplished at what would now be considered the end of our September in the year He was born.
 
What does that mean when celebrating on December 25th?  It just means we're celebrating His existence on that day.  It means we're under the law of man at this time and we are to wear the yolk of man's law until truly Godly men are in positions of power.  God said we were to bear the yolk of being under man's law so celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec 25th would be no exception.
 
Anyone follow that?

      
If hell was added on later then what is the Bible talking about with the whole going to a place with wailing and gnashing of teeth and the pit of fire?

   
  
Literally, The Valley of Hinnom

Yup, that too.
 
Just as there's things one can pull out of the Bible to "confirm" the existence of Hell... or Rapture... or whatever floats your boat, there's many things refudiating (LOL) them, as well.

Except that, once again, it doesn't prove there isn't Hell.

joyful1 wrote:

A lot of interesting stuff in this thread.  It's amazing what you find when you read early church history.
 
I, too, as a pp stated, believe there is no hell as being preached by Christian (and other) religions.  Hell was a concept added on much later in church teachings.  It can be said the early church taught universal reconciliation, in which everyone and everything is reconciled to God, meaning everyone is saved in the end.  I believe in a God that would not snuff out the majority of His creation because He made it imperfect.  I believe in a God who made us imperfect purposely so that we could understand unconditional, "agape" love.
 
FWIW, I personally believe the date Jesus was born was very specific as His birth had to fulfill prophecy and scripture in a very specific way by aligning with the Jewish feast days.  That could only have been accomplished at what would now be considered the end of our September in the year He was born.
 
What does that mean when celebrating on December 25th?  It just means we're celebrating His existence on that day.  It means we're under the law of man at this time and we are to wear the yolk of man's law until truly Godly men are in positions of power.  God said we were to bear the yolk of being under man's law so celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec 25th would be no exception.
 
Anyone follow that?

       
If hell was added on later then what is the Bible talking about with the whole going to a place with wailing and gnashing of teeth and the pit of fire?

    
  
Literally, The Valley of Hinnom

Yup, that too.
 
Just as there's things one can pull out of the Bible to "confirm" the existence of Hell... or Rapture... or whatever floats your boat, there's many things refudiating (LOL) them, as well.

Except that, once again, it doesn't prove there isn't Hell.

You believe in hell.  That's obvious.  No, what it's modeled after, literally means, etc. doesn't prove or disprove the existence of hell.  Or at least it wouldn't for you.  I'm going to be quite honest here.  Hell is so indoctrinated into Christianity and into Christians themselves that they can't separate it out and look at it objectively.  Why?  Because the corrupt church wanted it that way.  Early church teachings, if we are to believe historical account, prove that hell wasn't added to the mix until much later.  There were many reasons to have eternal damnation if one didn't follow the rules.  It "helped" convert the masses, helped keep people in line and helped the church power and coffers grow.  The lack of hell for the Jewish/Hebrew religion proves it.  Why would God add hell in the NT?  It doesn't add up.
 
ETA: Meetings of the church itself that discussed bringing hell into its teachings are what I reference, but I can't remember where I read these things.  Look up Dr. Steven Jones for a start.

Phronsie_BZCL wrote:

A lot of interesting stuff in this thread.  It's amazing what you find when you read early church history.
 
I, too, as a pp stated, believe there is no hell as being preached by Christian (and other) religions.  Hell was a concept added on much later in church teachings.  It can be said the early church taught universal reconciliation, in which everyone and everything is reconciled to God, meaning everyone is saved in the end.  I believe in a God that would not snuff out the majority of His creation because He made it imperfect.  I believe in a God who made us imperfect purposely so that we could understand unconditional, "agape" love.
 
FWIW, I personally believe the date Jesus was born was very specific as His birth had to fulfill prophecy and scripture in a very specific way by aligning with the Jewish feast days.  That could only have been accomplished at what would now be considered the end of our September in the year He was born.
 
What does that mean when celebrating on December 25th?  It just means we're celebrating His existence on that day.  It means we're under the law of man at this time and we are to wear the yolk of man's law until truly Godly men are in positions of power.  God said we were to bear the yolk of being under man's law so celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec 25th would be no exception.
 
Anyone follow that?

        
If hell was added on later then what is the Bible talking about with the whole going to a place with wailing and gnashing of teeth and the pit of fire?

     
  
Literally, The Valley of Hinnom

Yup, that too.
 
Just as there's things one can pull out of the Bible to "confirm" the existence of Hell... or Rapture... or whatever floats your boat, there's many things refudiating (LOL) them, as well.

Except that, once again, it doesn't prove there isn't Hell.

You believe in hell.  That's obvious.  No, what it's modeled after, literally means, etc. doesn't prove or disprove the existence of hell.  Or at least it wouldn't for you.  I'm going to be quite honest here.  Hell is so indoctrinated into Christianity and into Christians themselves that they can't separate it out and look at it objectively.  Why?  Because the corrupt church wanted it that way.  Early church teachings, if we are to believe historical account, prove that hell wasn't added to the mix until much later.  There were many reasons to have eternal damnation if one didn't follow the rules.  It "helped" convert the masses, helped keep people in line and helped the church power and coffers grow.  The lack of hell for the Jewish/Hebrew religion proves it.  Why would God add hell in the NT?  It doesn't add up.
 
ETA: Meetings of the church itself that discussed bringing hell into its teachings are what I reference, but I can't remember where I read these things.  Look up Dr. Steven Jones for a start.

Ok so where is Satan going to be cast then? I mean when it's all said and done, he gets the boot (which is Biblical). There wasn't a lack of Hell in the OT. (Which, when I have more time I might discuss with you.)  You don't know, any more than I do, whether or not the ONLY reason Hell was "invented" was to scare people into converting. You speculate, based on what you believe. It's all in interpretation differences. I've done enough reading to make my own "conclusions" about Hell and I don't see it NOT being talked about in the Bible. I'd post more but Aria is being a pill and trying to climb the screen so I have to go but I'd totally be interested in conversation off boards with you about this if you have the time. My email is in the siggy.

Ozzie*sMom wrote:

Yes, Jesus may not have been born exactly on Dec 25 but we can still celebrate it then. The main thing is that we celebrate His coming to earth and later dying for our sins. I don't like the idea of Santa Claus and I won't be telling DD that there is one. Because of Jesus' gift of life to us (and wisemen gifts to Him) we celebrate by giving gifts to others. It crazy to me how the world has lost touch with the meaning of Christmas. I think we all need to read the Christmas story again and realize the true meaning. Because of HIm, I get to spend eternity in Heaven!!!!

   
Congrats on your after-death plans, but there are a number of us who are not Christians yet know enough about the religion and it's celebrations that we don't "all need to read the Christmas story again."

  
Psh, don't read the Christmas story, watch "A Christmas Story". Way more fun

*~*Granola~Flutterby*~* wrote:

Yes, Jesus may not have been born exactly on Dec 25 but we can still celebrate it then. The main thing is that we celebrate His coming to earth and later dying for our sins. I don't like the idea of Santa Claus and I won't be telling DD that there is one. Because of Jesus' gift of life to us (and wisemen gifts to Him) we celebrate by giving gifts to others. It crazy to me how the world has lost touch with the meaning of Christmas. I think we all need to read the Christmas story again and realize the true meaning. Because of HIm, I get to spend eternity in Heaven!!!!

    
Congrats on your after-death plans, but there are a number of us who are not Christians yet know enough about the religion and it's celebrations that we don't "all need to read the Christmas story again."

   
Psh, don't read the Christmas story, watch "A Christmas Story". Way more fun

Favorite movie EVER.

joyful1 wrote:

A lot of interesting stuff in this thread.  It's amazing what you find when you read early church history.
 
I, too, as a pp stated, believe there is no hell as being preached by Christian (and other) religions.  Hell was a concept added on much later in church teachings.  It can be said the early church taught universal reconciliation, in which everyone and everything is reconciled to God, meaning everyone is saved in the end.  I believe in a God that would not snuff out the majority of His creation because He made it imperfect.  I believe in a God who made us imperfect purposely so that we could understand unconditional, "agape" love.
 
FWIW, I personally believe the date Jesus was born was very specific as His birth had to fulfill prophecy and scripture in a very specific way by aligning with the Jewish feast days.  That could only have been accomplished at what would now be considered the end of our September in the year He was born.
 
What does that mean when celebrating on December 25th?  It just means we're celebrating His existence on that day.  It means we're under the law of man at this time and we are to wear the yolk of man's law until truly Godly men are in positions of power.  God said we were to bear the yolk of being under man's law so celebrating Jesus' birthday on Dec 25th would be no exception.
 
Anyone follow that?

         
If hell was added on later then what is the Bible talking about with the whole going to a place with wailing and gnashing of teeth and the pit of fire?

 
     
  
Literally, The Valley of Hinnom

Yup, that too.
 
Just as there's things one can pull out of the Bible to "confirm" the existence of Hell... or Rapture... or whatever floats your boat, there's many things refudiating (LOL) them, as well.

Except that, once again, it doesn't prove there isn't Hell.

You believe in hell.  That's obvious.  No, what it's modeled after, literally means, etc. doesn't prove or disprove the existence of hell.  Or at least it wouldn't for you.  I'm going to be quite honest here.  Hell is so indoctrinated into Christianity and into Christians themselves that they can't separate it out and look at it objectively.  Why?  Because the corrupt church wanted it that way.  Early church teachings, if we are to believe historical account, prove that hell wasn't added to the mix until much later.  There were many reasons to have eternal damnation if one didn't follow the rules.  It "helped" convert the masses, helped keep people in line and helped the church power and coffers grow.  The lack of hell for the Jewish/Hebrew religion proves it.  Why would God add hell in the NT?  It doesn't add up.
 
ETA: Meetings of the church itself that discussed bringing hell into its teachings are what I reference, but I can't remember where I read these things.  Look up Dr. Steven Jones for a start.

Ok so where is Satan going to be cast then? I mean when it's all said and done, he gets the boot (which is Biblical). There wasn't a lack of Hell in the OT. (Which, when I have more time I might discuss with you.)  You don't know, any more than I do, whether or not the ONLY reason Hell was "invented" was to scare people into converting. You speculate, based on what you believe. It's all in interpretation differences. I've done enough reading to make my own "conclusions" about Hell and I don't see it NOT being talked about in the Bible. I'd post more but Aria is being a pill and trying to climb the screen so I have to go but I'd totally be interested in conversation off boards with you about this if you have the time. My email is in the siggy.

I may just take you up on that sometime.  Well, once my brain starts functioning normally again.  Between having Owen and Elijah going back to school and being pregnant, having a coherent convo is difficult.  I would probably just refer you to some things I've read like I did above.
 
Oh, and I also don't believe in Satan.

joyful1 wrote:

Yes, Jesus may not have been born exactly on Dec 25 but we can still celebrate it then. The main thing is that we celebrate His coming to earth and later dying for our sins. I don't like the idea of Santa Claus and I won't be telling DD that there is one. Because of Jesus' gift of life to us (and wisemen gifts to Him) we celebrate by giving gifts to others. It crazy to me how the world has lost touch with the meaning of Christmas. I think we all need to read the Christmas story again and realize the true meaning. Because of HIm, I get to spend eternity in Heaven!!!!

     
Congrats on your after-death plans, but there are a number of us who are not Christians yet know enough about the religion and it's celebrations that we don't "all need to read the Christmas story again."

 
   
Psh, don't read the Christmas story, watch "A Christmas Story". Way more fun

Favorite movie EVER.

My Dh still has not seen this movie.  *gasp*  It's something I plan to rectify this year.

newsoontobemommy wrote:

Jesus wasn't born on December 25, first of all. Christmas itself is a Christian ploy to cover up the pagan holiday yule because too many people were participating and it was thought to be a heathen thing to do. Long story short, Jesus is speculated to have been born sometime in the summer (when shepherds actually had their sheep out in fields) but the Christian faith chose to celebrate it on December 25th to overlap (or override, as it successfully has) yule. Many elements of yule remain part of Christmas, like the Christmas tree- during yule, a tree is decorated with holly. Big shocker that Christianity took over something else
Christmas is technically a celebration of the birth of Christ, but conveniently that unknown date was rearranged to take over another religion. Easter's the same deal.

   
What evidence do you or anyone else have that Jesus was not born on Christmas? Never have I heard of this..

  
Seriously?  You had no idea that Jesus more than likely was not born on Dec 25?  It is actually believed that he may have been born at the end of our September, or perhaps the beginning of October.

Rissa2008 wrote:

Jesus wasn't born on December 25, first of all. Christmas itself is a Christian ploy to cover up the pagan holiday yule because too many people were participating and it was thought to be a heathen thing to do. Long story short, Jesus is speculated to have been born sometime in the summer (when shepherds actually had their sheep out in fields) but the Christian faith chose to celebrate it on December 25th to overlap (or override, as it successfully has) yule. Many elements of yule remain part of Christmas, like the Christmas tree- during yule, a tree is decorated with holly. Big shocker that Christianity took over something else
Christmas is technically a celebration of the birth of Christ, but conveniently that unknown date was rearranged to take over another religion. Easter's the same deal.

    
What evidence do you or anyone else have that Jesus was not born on Christmas? Never have I heard of this..

   
Seriously?  You had no idea that Jesus more than likely was not born on Dec 25?  It is actually believed that he may have been born at the end of our September, or perhaps the beginning of October.

My religion believes it's April 6th, but I can't really remember why they say that... I guess I should do some research.

siena&gaven wrote:

Jesus wasn't born on December 25, first of all. Christmas itself is a Christian ploy to cover up the pagan holiday yule because too many people were participating and it was thought to be a heathen thing to do. Long story short, Jesus is speculated to have been born sometime in the summer (when shepherds actually had their sheep out in fields) but the Christian faith chose to celebrate it on December 25th to overlap (or override, as it successfully has) yule. Many elements of yule remain part of Christmas, like the Christmas tree- during yule, a tree is decorated with holly. Big shocker that Christianity took over something else
Christmas is technically a celebration of the birth of Christ, but conveniently that unknown date was rearranged to take over another religion. Easter's the same deal.

    
What evidence do you or anyone else have that Jesus was not born on Christmas? Never have I heard of this..

   
Because of the sheep being in the fields, the stars, etc, it isn't really possible to have been Dec.  That all points to it being spring/fall.  Also, the census, the reason for Mary & Joseph traveling to Bethlehem, wouldn't have been in winter. 
This is a commonly held belief, even within churches.  I'm honestly shocked that you hadn't heard it before!  I was taught this in Catholic jr high.

I have not been to church during much of my adult life and do not remember hearing this as a child. Like I stated, this will be our first church experience as a family, without others bringing us along to their church on a special occasion.
 
What bothers me is the fact that I have thought this entire time that December 25th was his birthday, almost like I believed in a lie. Am I being fed more lies? I guess that is religion, and that you have to have faith in the unknown..

Jesus wasn't born on December 25, first of all. Christmas itself is a Christian ploy to cover up the pagan holiday yule because too many people were participating and it was thought to be a heathen thing to do. Long story short, Jesus is speculated to have been born sometime in the summer (when shepherds actually had their sheep out in fields) but the Christian faith chose to celebrate it on December 25th to overlap (or override, as it successfully has) yule. Many elements of yule remain part of Christmas, like the Christmas tree- during yule, a tree is decorated with holly. Big shocker that Christianity took over something else
Christmas is technically a celebration of the birth of Christ, but conveniently that unknown date was rearranged to take over another religion. Easter's the same deal.

 

Rissa2008 wrote:    
What evidence do you or anyone else have that Jesus was not born on Christmas? Never have I heard of this..

 

Rissa2008 wrote:Seriously?  You had no idea that Jesus more than likely was not born on Dec 25?  It is actually believed that he may have been born at the end of our September, or perhaps the beginning of October.

 

Rissa2008 wrote:
My religion believes it's April 6th, but I can't really remember why they say that... I guess I should do some research.

 

Utah Peach_BZCL wrote:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized on April 6th and in the D&C it says that the church was organized on the date of Christ's birth.