Crucify Them...after they are beheaded for child rape : Hot Topics

Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:52 pm

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-43639120091103

In Saudi Arabia, crucifixion means tying the body of the convict to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after beheading.
A Saudi court of cassation upheld a ruling to behead and crucify a 22-year-old man convicted of raping five children and leaving one of them to die in the desert, newspapers reported on Tuesday.
The convict was arrested earlier this year after a seven-year old boy helped police in their investigation. The child left in the desert after the rape was three years old, Okaz newspaper said.
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http://sandgetsinmyeyes.blogspot.com/2009/09/saudis-traditional-form-of-child-abuse.html

According to a recent article, burning children with hot spoons is a pretty common “punishment” used by Saudi mothers to “correct misbehavior”. Of course, instead of calling the act what it is – out and out child abuse – the abusers call it “traditional punishment”.

=================================================================

This is sort of a two pronged discussion. The article on beheading and crucifying the 22 year old - quite honestly had me saying: At least in SOME countries they treat child rapist in a manner that befits their acts.

Quite seriously. FIVE children...the one he left in the desert was 3 years old. If I could behead him twice, I'd do it.

But then... I saw the second discussion....the country that beheads it's child rapist, also utilizes 'traditional punishment' such as burning with spoons...

WTH?

=================================================================

I'm of the opinion, that we are NOT harsh enough on child rapists in the United States. I don't think they can be 'fixed' by counseling, nor any other manner.

Life in Prison is what they get in the US.The Supreme Court banned the death sentence for child rapist.

Justice Anthony Kennedy,(in regards to a case where a man raped an 8 year old to the point that she required internal surgery to fix the damage), cited "evolving standards of decency" that forbid capital punishment for any crime against an individual other than murder.

Justice Samuel Alito wrote the dissent and said that the majority ruled
against the death penalty for child rapists "no matter how young the
child, no matter how many times the child is raped, no matter how many
children the perpetrator rapes, no matter how sadistic the crime, no
matter how much physical or psychological trauma is inflicted and no
matter how heinous the perpetrator's criminal record may be."

Basically - the argument is that allowing the death penalty for child rape, the incentive for an attacker not to kill their victims would be removed.

================================================================

What do you think? Do you think that 'life in prison' is adequate punishment - say for the guy in Saudi - who raped 5 children, and leaving a 3 year old in the desert to die?

Unless he's exposed to the prison population tied down, naked, draped over a barrel for their daily use.... I'm not sure 3 meals, healthcare, cable television and a nice warm bed is 'okay' with my sense of 'justice'.

Yes, it's barbaric...but 5 kids...and leaving a 3 year old to die in the desert?

Do you think there SHOULD be a death penalty for child rapists?

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:05 pm

I think if you brutally rape any person in life, woman, man, child, you should never ever see a moment of freedom again. Whether that be life in prison of death penalty, either one is fine but never freedom.

I HATE the sex offense registry. What a stupid idea. We know these people are too dangerous for society so we write their names on a list and set them free. Either they can be in society or they cannot. A violent rapist should never be set free to rape again.

There are few crimes in life that sould end a person's free life as they knew it. Murder, torture, rape, harming someone tot he point of disfiguring them for life...these sorts of things should land a person away from society forever.

If a society wants to behead the nonhuman scum that would violently rape an innocent child and leave them to die, then that society shows just how they look at this abonination of an act in life. Treating the monsters as the monsters that they are.

As for the traditional punishment that is child abuse, I feel that that is an entirely different issue. The crussifiction of rapists can be upheld while the child abuse be abolished. In fact, it makes more sense in a society that is for protecting its children to rid themselves of the child rapists while also ridding themselves of legalized child abuse.

Mary

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:09 pm

Dee-Cajungaltx wrote:http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-43639120091103
In Saudi Arabia, crucifixion means tying the body of the convict to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after beheading.
A Saudi court of cassation upheld a ruling to behead and crucify a 22-year-old man convicted of raping five children and leaving one of them to die in the desert, newspapers reported on Tuesday.
The convict was arrested earlier this year after a seven-year old boy helped police in their investigation. The child left in the desert after the rape was three years old, Okaz newspaper said.
=================================================================
http://sandgetsinmyeyes.blogspot.com/2009/09/saudis-traditional-form-of-child-abuse.html
According to a recent article, burning children with hot spoons is a pretty common “punishment” used by Saudi mothers to “correct misbehavior”. Of course, instead of calling the act what it is – out and out child abuse – the abusers call it “traditional punishment”.
=================================================================
This is sort of a two pronged discussion. The article on beheading and crucifying the 22 year old - quite honestly had me saying: At least in SOME countries they treat child rapist in a manner that befits their acts.
Quite seriously. FIVE children...the one he left in the desert was 3 years old. If I could behead him twice, I'd do it.
But then... I saw the second discussion....the country that beheads it's child rapist, also utilizes 'traditional punishment' such as burning with spoons...
WTH?
=================================================================
I'm of the opinion, that we are NOT harsh enough on child rapists in the United States. I don't think they can be 'fixed' by counseling, nor any other manner.
Life in Prison is what they get in the US.The Supreme Court banned the death sentence for child rapist.
Justice Anthony Kennedy,(in regards to a case where a man raped an 8 year old to the point that she required internal surgery to fix the damage), cited "evolving standards of decency" that forbid capital punishment for any crime against an individual other than murder.
Justice Samuel Alito wrote the dissent and said that the majority ruled
against the death penalty for child rapists "no matter how young the
child, no matter how many times the child is raped, no matter how many
children the perpetrator rapes, no matter how sadistic the crime, no
matter how much physical or psychological trauma is inflicted and no
matter how heinous the perpetrator's criminal record may be."

Basically - the argument is that allowing the death penalty for child rape, the incentive for an attacker not to kill their victims would be removed.
================================================================
What do you think? Do you think that 'life in prison' is adequate punishment - say for the guy in Saudi - who raped 5 children, and leaving a 3 year old in the desert to die?
Unless he's exposed to the prison population tied down, naked, draped over a barrel for their daily use.... I'm not sure 3 meals, healthcare, cable television and a nice warm bed is 'okay' with my sense of 'justice'.
Yes, it's barbaric...but 5 kids...and leaving a 3 year old to die in the desert?
Do you think there SHOULD be a death penalty for child rapists?

I don't believe in the death penalty and think that the rapists punishment is cruel and unusual and goes against Islam's beliefs of how to treat the dead.

I think that the punishment to children is WAY over the top and disgusting.

I think that when we stop treating people as humans (no matter what their crime) we lose a bit of our humanity.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:13 pm

My gut reaction with many of these cases is to have the attackers drawn and quartered, hung by chains, or whatever I've seen recently featured on "The Tudors".
But then I think of all the people who are innocent but are declared guilty through misleading evidence, public opinion, unscrupulous lawyers, etc. I think of Guy Paul Morin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Paul_Morin
And I think of the time in grade 11 when a prison security guard came to speak to my law class. He talked about how he was in charge of Morin while he was in prison, and how Morin was isolated due to the nature of the crime and how it would play out in the prison population, and how he made sure that Morin's only time outside to exercise was at night, so that Morin under his care never saw the sun. And this was after Morin was found innocent of the crime.
So I don't know. My gut instinct is at odds with my knowledge of the inadequacies of the justice system, and I certainly cannot endorse the horrible deaths of possibly innocent individuals as 'collateral damage' in order to punish the real child predators.

ETA: Apparently Wiki is at odds with the story the guard told of Morin not being in the general population. Or perhaps this was after he was removed from the general population and assigned a guard for isolation. Either way, what happened to Morin was pretty awful for a man completely innocent.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:23 pm

YES, I do think the DP should be allowed for child rapists.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:23 pm

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:
I think that when we stop treating people as humans (no matter what their crime) we lose a bit of our humanity.

A man who can violently rape a three year old and then leave that child to die in NOT human. Perhaps that man wears a human body but he clearly lacks a human soul. Walking human monster, that is what a man like this is.

We have to stop worrying so much about the people who commit these disgusting crimes and worry more about keeping our children safe from them. A person like this should never EVER be allowed outside of prison walls again.

This is a person who took the life of that little innocent child and completely changed it forever. He also forever changed the lives of all of those who love that child. He destroyed so much with his life, and to think of having compassion for a person who harmed so many, to look at him and allow his to keep his life, make changes, smile again, laugh again??? It seems so fundamentally wrong.

Mary

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:27 pm

Dee-Cajungaltx wrote:utilizes 'traditional punishment' such as burning with spoons...
WTH?

well, that kinda goes against the "protect the children" mentality a bit, doesn't it...? Thats terrible and definitely child abuse.

Dee-Cajungaltx wrote:I'm of the opinion, that we are NOT harsh enough on child rapists in the United States. I don't think they can be 'fixed' by counseling, nor any other manner.

IA

Dee-Cajungaltx wrote:What do you think? Do you think that 'life in prison' is adequate punishment - say for the guy in Saudi - who raped 5 children, and leaving a 3 year old in the desert to die?

Nope, I am pro-DP, I think everyone knows that by now.

Dee-Cajungaltx wrote:Unless he's exposed to the prison population tied down, naked, draped over a barrel for their daily use.... I'm not sure 3 meals, healthcare, cable television and a nice warm bed is 'okay' with my sense of 'justice'.
Yes, it's barbaric...but 5 kids...and leaving a 3 year old to die in the desert?

This would be an appropriate alternative to the DP IMO.

Dee-Cajungaltx wrote:Do you think there SHOULD be a death penalty for child rapists?

I can see why they don't, let the kid live, you will just get Life in Prison. If they would get the DP anyway, may-as-well go ahead and kill them when you are done with them (which, the DP is most definitely appropriate for~capital murder). Of course, I'm sure that no one ever thinks they will get caught, so I'm sure that the punishment is not a deterant. I definitely don't think they should EVER be released into society.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:36 pm

buddy-love wrote:

I think that when we stop treating people as humans (no matter what their crime) we lose a bit of our humanity.

A man who can violently rape a three year old and then leave that child to die in NOT human. Perhaps that man wears a human body but he clearly lacks a human soul. Walking human monster, that is what a man like this is.

We have to stop worrying so much about the people who commit these disgusting crimes and worry more about keeping our children safe from them. A person like this should never EVER be allowed outside of prison walls again.

This is a person who took the life of that little innocent child and completely changed it forever. He also forever changed the lives of all of those who love that child. He destroyed so much with his life, and to think of having compassion for a person who harmed so many, to look at him and allow his to keep his life, make changes, smile again, laugh again??? It seems so fundamentally wrong.

Mary

I know it seems fundamentally wrong Mary and I know I look like a psycho for feeling the way I do. I just truly and deeply feel that it is not up to us to determine who lives and who dies. I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I just don't. it doesn't get us anywhere. vengeance in our hearts is such a bad thing.

I've read stories about executions (thanks to Deborah) and I find it horrifying that our government can make it legal to end someone's life.

Call me a lunatic. I'm OK with that.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:47 pm

No, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime. I'd like to think we're more civilized then that, but I realize that we're not (due to some states still having the death penalty). I think it's barbaric and disgusting.

I dont' think a convicted criminal should have luxuries in prison, but IMO, life in prison is a sufficient punishment.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:48 pm

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:

I've read stories about executions (thanks to Deborah) and I find it horrifying that our government can make it legal to end someone's life.

Call me a lunatic. I'm OK with that.

I read those too (again, thanks to Deborah), and honestly, it didn't bother me....maybe I'm the lunatic?

No one said that the DP should be painless / easy (although I know there are some that believe that). Personally, IMO, its a punishment, it should be as painful as possible. Maybe that's why those stories didn't bother me?

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:51 pm

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:

I think that when we stop treating people as humans (no matter what their crime) we lose a bit of our humanity.

A man who can violently rape a three year old and then leave that child to die in NOT human. Perhaps that man wears a human body but he clearly lacks a human soul. Walking human monster, that is what a man like this is.

We have to stop worrying so much about the people who commit these disgusting crimes and worry more about keeping our children safe from them. A person like this should never EVER be allowed outside of prison walls again.

This is a person who took the life of that little innocent child and completely changed it forever. He also forever changed the lives of all of those who love that child. He destroyed so much with his life, and to think of having compassion for a person who harmed so many, to look at him and allow his to keep his life, make changes, smile again, laugh again??? It seems so fundamentally wrong.

Mary

I know it seems fundamentally wrong Mary and I know I look like a psycho for feeling the way I do. I just truly and deeply feel that it is not up to us to determine who lives and who dies. I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I just don't. it doesn't get us anywhere. vengeance in our hearts is such a bad thing.

I've read stories about executions (thanks to Deborah) and I find it horrifying that our government can make it legal to end someone's life.

Call me a lunatic. I'm OK with that.

You do not look like a psycho or a lunatic for believing as you do. I do not and would not think that of you ever. I can see where it is that you are coming from and I can understand why people believe as you do.

But I believe that there are some things in this life that are so dark and wrong and take so much from society that they should not be tolerated even a little. The people who do these wrongs really harm us all, their evil deeds affect all of humanity. When we allow pure evil to live freely what good do we gain?

In my faith I am supposed to leave all judgements to God. It is not my place to condemn any other person, all people are His children. But this is actually one of the aspects of my beliefs that I deeply struggle with. Because to rape a baby, some mothers baby, that is a darkness that sends cold chills through my entire body and fills me with such hatred. If it were my three year old? Just the thought leaves me queezy. But see, this is some mother's child, some other me out there who has to live everyday in this new nightmare! Has to lay her head on her pillow and try to sleep at night. Has to hold her beautiful little child after this disgusting monster did as he did. It makes me furious, hate filled. How can a society tolerate this ever one tiny little bit?! The people society needs to be thinking of and helping at this point are the child and the parents and loved ones of that child, not the filth that did this.

Some dark is too dark.

Mary

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:52 pm

spacecase76 wrote:I read those too (again, thanks to Deborah), and honestly, it didn't bother me....maybe I'm the lunatic? :-p No one said that the DP should be painless / easy (although I know there are some that believe that). Personally, IMO, its a punishment, it should be as painful as possible. Maybe that's why those stories didn't bother me?

[/quote]

Stacy, it didn't bother you that some of those executed were mentally challenged, retarded or chronically mentally ill?

I hate the DP. To me it epitomizes arhaic logic.

Like Dana, its enough to keep them in prison without hope of parole.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:56 pm

buddy-love wrote:You do not look like a psycho or a lunatic for believing as you do. I do not and would not think that of you ever. I can see where it is that you are coming from and I can understand why people believe as you do.

But I believe that there are some things in this life that are so dark and wrong and take so much from society that they should not be tolerated even a little. The people who do these wrongs really harm us all, their evil deeds affect all of humanity. When we allow pure evil to live freely what good do we gain?

In my faith I am supposed to leave all judgements to God. It is not my place to condemn any other person, all people are His children. But this is actually one of the aspects of my beliefs that I deeply struggle with. Because to rape a baby, some mothers baby, that is a darkness that sends cold chills through my entire body and fills me with such hatred. If it were my three year old? Just the thought leaves me queezy. But see, this is some mother's child, some other me out there who has to live everyday in this new nightmare! Has to lay her head on her pillow and try to sleep at night. Has to hold her beautiful little child after this disgusting monster did as he did. It makes me furious, hate filled. How can a society tolerate this ever one tiny little bit?! The people society needs to be thinking of and helping at this point are the child and the parents and loved ones of that child, not the filth that did this.

Some dark is too dark.

Mary

[/quote]

Mary,

I agree with you. Ever since having my kids when I hear of a crime like that against a child my heart breaks in two for the mother. I think about all the "what ifs" that must be running through her heart. I think about the loss of dreams that she had for that child, I think about the immense hurt that comes from someone hurting your baby. Heck, someone told my 2 year old son they didn't like him and I was reduced to tears. So I agree.

I just can't justify killing people for killing. its like hitting your child for hitting.

I am not religious, though I have religion. This isn't a God issue for me, but I believe that we do not have the right to kill. We just don't.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:34 pm

DP is an option IMO for some of these cases; his included. Sometimes traditional punishment follows a standard that makes sense (removing these people permanently from society because they will never be a productive individual) and sometimes it doesn't (burning children with hot spoons). There's a difference, and even in our nation we see the stark contrasts between what makes sense and what does not.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:55 pm

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:
You do not look like a psycho or a lunatic for believing as you do. I do not and would not think that of you ever. I can see where it is that you are coming from and I can understand why people believe as you do.

But I believe that there are some things in this life that are so dark and wrong and take so much from society that they should not be tolerated even a little. The people who do these wrongs really harm us all, their evil deeds affect all of humanity. When we allow pure evil to live freely what good do we gain?

In my faith I am supposed to leave all judgements to God. It is not my place to condemn any other person, all people are His children. But this is actually one of the aspects of my beliefs that I deeply struggle with. Because to rape a baby, some mothers baby, that is a darkness that sends cold chills through my entire body and fills me with such hatred. If it were my three year old? Just the thought leaves me queezy. But see, this is some mother's child, some other me out there who has to live everyday in this new nightmare! Has to lay her head on her pillow and try to sleep at night. Has to hold her beautiful little child after this disgusting monster did as he did. It makes me furious, hate filled. How can a society tolerate this ever one tiny little bit?! The people society needs to be thinking of and helping at this point are the child and the parents and loved ones of that child, not the filth that did this.

Some dark is too dark.

Mary

Mary,

I agree with you. Ever since having my kids when I hear of a crime like that against a child my heart breaks in two for the mother. I think about all the "what ifs" that must be running through her heart. I think about the loss of dreams that she had for that child, I think about the immense hurt that comes from someone hurting your baby. Heck, someone told my 2 year old son they didn't like him and I was reduced to tears. So I agree.

I just can't justify killing people for killing. its like hitting your child for hitting.

I am not religious, though I have religion. This isn't a God issue for me, but I believe that we do not have the right to kill. We just don't.[/quote]

I truly respect where you are coming from.

Honestly, this is one issue for me that I have profound moral confusion with.

I hear a story like this and I instantly think of Travis, who is three like the child in the story. I think of how his chin turns up and dimples when he cries. I think of how he reaches his hands up for me when he is scared and how when I pick him up his soft, little hand reaches for the mole on my inner arm, how he rests his thumb on his "dotty-dot" for comfort. My mind goes there instantly, pictures these things, then I try as hard as I can NOT to picture this evil thing that happened to this another mother's three year old while thinking of my own three year old. I fight not to think of how my child would react and feel in this situation, because a child just like my own was living in that moment with that beast of a man putting his full grown body on top of this tiny child's body. I can't help but go there in my mind and it makes me feel this cold, sickening feeling all over. And I literally ache for that child and for that mother.

I think that this man should not ever be allowed to rest his head on a pillow at night again, enjoying the comfort as he drifts to sleep. I think he should never be allowed the enjoyment of a warm meal again, or to hum a song as he showers, or to laugh at a tv show or to daydream. He should never be allowed to be given those moments in his life after what he took.

And that is my struggle because I do not think that the death penalty is necessarily a good thing for society. But as bad as I think taking alife as a form of punishment is, allowing that life to continue seems more wrong to me on a gut level reaction.

So with my head I see the logic of being anti-DP, but the whole rest of me is screaming on the inside for it for people like the victims in this one story. And it is pleading for it knowing that this one story does not stand alone, that this happens time and again in this world, to humankind, and that it is not stopped dead in its place, cut off from continuing in exsistance.

Mary

Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:07 pm

DanaNJ wrote:No, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime. I'd like to think we're more civilized then that, but I realize that we're not (due to some states still having the death penalty). I think it's barbaric and disgusting.

I dont' think a convicted criminal should have luxuries in prison, but IMO, life in prison is a sufficient punishment.

I would like to think we are more civilized than allowing for violent criminals, people who have raped and killed and scarred and harmed children to ever step foot out of prison ever again only to reoffend, but we allow for that as well.

We need to find the fine line of keeping dangerous criminals put away from society where they can do no more harm ever but without making that cruel or unusual punishment.

Our justice system has fundamental flaws. Death penalty is the big one to you, yet to many others the fact that violent offenders are allowed to harm again is much more of a pressing concern. We don't have it right all the time. I think we need to be looking from the perspective of the victims and the innocents of society rather than the perspective of those who brought punishment upon themselves.

Mary

Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:17 pm

buddy-love wrote:
No, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime. I'd like to think we're more civilized then that, but I realize that we're not (due to some states still having the death penalty). I think it's barbaric and disgusting.

I dont' think a convicted criminal should have luxuries in prison, but IMO, life in prison is a sufficient punishment.

I would like to think we are more civilized than allowing for violent criminals, people who have raped and killed and scarred and harmed children to ever step foot out of prison ever again only to reoffend, but we allow for that as well.

We need to find the fine line of keeping dangerous criminals put away from society where they can do no more harm ever but without making that cruel or unusual punishment.

Our justice system has fundamental flaws. Death penalty is the big one to you, yet to many others the fact that violent offenders are allowed to harm again is much more of a pressing concern. We don't have it right all the time. I think we need to be looking from the perspective of the victims and the innocents of society rather than the perspective of those who brought punishment upon themselves.

Mary

I think that too, which is why my 2nd paragraph says "life in prison". If they're spending their life in prison, they can't harm again (unless it's another inmate and that's up to the prison system to deal with). Because I don't agree with the DP under any circumstances, do not mean I think convicted criminals should be allowed to be free.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:30 pm

I do not believe in the death penalty. Call me selfish but my reasoning has more to do with the effects it would have on the person/people left behind than on the accused. While some of these people have committed crimes which would make us question their humanity, the fact is that we are human and humans do not have the right to take other human lives. It does nothing but hinder our evolution, our advancing civilization. It takes us a few steps back.

I think there are places in the world where human life holds much less value. I would no more beat my child with a hot spoon than fly to the moon. As I would never attend a lynching, beheading or crucifixion. While those types of activities used to be common public entertainment I choose to take the high road. A life sentence would accomplish the same thing, keep the criminal away from the public. That is the main job of the justice system. We are not qualified to play executioner. That is not our place.

Tracey

Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:59 pm

buddy-love wrote:
No, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime. I'd like to think we're more civilized then that, but I realize that we're not (due to some states still having the death penalty). I think it's barbaric and disgusting.

I dont' think a convicted criminal should have luxuries in prison, but IMO, life in prison is a sufficient punishment.

I would like to think we are more civilized than allowing for violent criminals, people who have raped and killed and scarred and harmed children to ever step foot out of prison ever again only to reoffend, but we allow for that as well.

We need to find the fine line of keeping dangerous criminals put away from society where they can do no more harm ever but without making that cruel or unusual punishment.

Our justice system has fundamental flaws. Death penalty is the big one to you, yet to many others the fact that violent offenders are allowed to harm again is much more of a pressing concern. We don't have it right all the time. I think we need to be looking from the perspective of the victims and the innocents of society rather than the perspective of those who brought punishment upon themselves.

Mary

Again I agree with most of what you're saying. And knowing you, I know that your choice to be Pro-DP must be hard.

For me I feel that to put them in prison for life with no hope of parole. To make them live that way. Simple foods, no pillows, no comforts is far more punishment. To kill them ends their punishment. Death becomes salvation for them. All it truly hurts are their loved ones who despite being related to a monster have done no wrong.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:09 pm

buddy-love wrote:

I think that when we stop treating people as humans (no matter what their crime) we lose a bit of our humanity.

A man who can violently rape a three year old and then leave that child to die in NOT human. Perhaps that man wears a human body but he clearly lacks a human soul. Walking human monster, that is what a man like this is.

We have to stop worrying so much about the people who commit these disgusting crimes and worry more about keeping our children safe from them. A person like this should never EVER be allowed outside of prison walls again.

This is a person who took the life of that little innocent child and completely changed it forever. He also forever changed the lives of all of those who love that child. He destroyed so much with his life, and to think of having compassion for a person who harmed so many, to look at him and allow his to keep his life, make changes, smile again, laugh again??? It seems so fundamentally wrong.

Mary

I know it seems fundamentally wrong Mary and I know I look like a psycho for feeling the way I do. I just truly and deeply feel that it is not up to us to determine who lives and who dies. I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I just don't. it doesn't get us anywhere. vengeance in our hearts is such a bad thing.

I've read stories about executions (thanks to Deborah) and I find it horrifying that our government can make it legal to end someone's life.

Call me a lunatic. I'm OK with that.

You do not look like a psycho or a lunatic for believing as you do. I do not and would not think that of you ever. I can see where it is that you are coming from and I can understand why people believe as you do.

But I believe that there are some things in this life that are so dark and wrong and take so much from society that they should not be tolerated even a little. The people who do these wrongs really harm us all, their evil deeds affect all of humanity. When we allow pure evil to live freely what good do we gain?

In my faith I am supposed to leave all judgements to God. It is not my place to condemn any other person, all people are His children. But this is actually one of the aspects of my beliefs that I deeply struggle with. Because to rape a baby, some mothers baby, that is a darkness that sends cold chills through my entire body and fills me with such hatred. If it were my three year old? Just the thought leaves me queezy. But see, this is some mother's child, some other me out there who has to live everyday in this new nightmare! Has to lay her head on her pillow and try to sleep at night. Has to hold her beautiful little child after this disgusting monster did as he did. It makes me furious, hate filled. How can a society tolerate this ever one tiny little bit?! The people society needs to be thinking of and helping at this point are the child and the parents and loved ones of that child, not the filth that did this.

Some dark is too dark.

Mary

mary your posts are always so beautiful and heartfelt. you have discribed exactly how i feel on this subject. i dont believe that a person who can look at a child and not see innocence and hope. see a parent and not see the unconditional love in their eyes. instead take that child and use them for a purpose that goes against humanity and think what they did was right or justifyable. the thought of this actually brings tears to my eyes. i know if it was ever my child there would never be forgiveness in my heart and that is a scary thought to me. children are a wonderful gift and anyone who thinks otherwise is not human to me.

i dont believe that society should care for these people for the rest of their lives. while plenty good, honest and hard working people struggle every day, they do not deserve the life they recieve in prision. the death penalty is in my eyes exactly what they deserve

Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:13 pm

DanaNJ wrote:
No, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime. I'd like to think we're more civilized then that, but I realize that we're not (due to some states still having the death penalty). I think it's barbaric and disgusting.

I dont' think a convicted criminal should have luxuries in prison, but IMO, life in prison is a sufficient punishment.

I would like to think we are more civilized than allowing for violent criminals, people who have raped and killed and scarred and harmed children to ever step foot out of prison ever again only to reoffend, but we allow for that as well.

We need to find the fine line of keeping dangerous criminals put away from society where they can do no more harm ever but without making that cruel or unusual punishment.

Our justice system has fundamental flaws. Death penalty is the big one to you, yet to many others the fact that violent offenders are allowed to harm again is much more of a pressing concern. We don't have it right all the time. I think we need to be looking from the perspective of the victims and the innocents of society rather than the perspective of those who brought punishment upon themselves.

Mary

I think that too, which is why my 2nd paragraph says "life in prison". If they're spending their life in prison, they can't harm again (unless it's another inmate and that's up to the prison system to deal with). Because I don't agree with the DP under any circumstances, do not mean I think convicted criminals should be allowed to be free.

I'm sorry. Yes, I did catch that and in fact wrote an entire paragraph about it. I actually wrote a much better reply than this one. The BZ monster ate that one then I wrote this one and neglected to reinclude all that I had previously noted.

I do understand that you support life with no parole in place of DP when it comes down to those two being the choices. I do not mean to imply that you in any way support releasing criminals with lesser sentances.

Again, I am sorry.

Mary

Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:44 pm

buddy-love wrote:
No, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime. I'd like to think we're more civilized then that, but I realize that we're not (due to some states still having the death penalty). I think it's barbaric and disgusting.

I dont' think a convicted criminal should have luxuries in prison, but IMO, life in prison is a sufficient punishment.

I would like to think we are more civilized than allowing for violent criminals, people who have raped and killed and scarred and harmed children to ever step foot out of prison ever again only to reoffend, but we allow for that as well.

We need to find the fine line of keeping dangerous criminals put away from society where they can do no more harm ever but without making that cruel or unusual punishment.

Our justice system has fundamental flaws. Death penalty is the big one to you, yet to many others the fact that violent offenders are allowed to harm again is much more of a pressing concern. We don't have it right all the time. I think we need to be looking from the perspective of the victims and the innocents of society rather than the perspective of those who brought punishment upon themselves.

Mary

I think that too, which is why my 2nd paragraph says "life in prison". If they're spending their life in prison, they can't harm again (unless it's another inmate and that's up to the prison system to deal with). Because I don't agree with the DP under any circumstances, do not mean I think convicted criminals should be allowed to be free.

I'm sorry. Yes, I did catch that and in fact wrote an entire paragraph about it. I actually wrote a much better reply than this one. The BZ monster ate that one then I wrote this one and neglected to reinclude all that I had previously noted.

I do understand that you support life with no parole in place of DP when it comes down to those two being the choices. I do not mean to imply that you in any way support releasing criminals with lesser sentances.

Again, I am sorry.

Mary

No need to apologize Mary

I just wanted to make sure I was clear that because I didn't support the DP, didn't mean I thought convicted criminals of henious crimes should ever be let out.

Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:51 pm

I am anti DP - imo not acceptable in a civilised society. I believe life in prison should mean life in prison. In the UK Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were convicted in the 1960s of the murder of at least 2 children - she died in prison and he is still incarcerated.

Isobel

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:05 am

i hear alot of people that dont believe in the Death penalty, and i think to myself what if that were your child. because if it were my child then i would want to kill them myself and i would be happy to watch them die at the execuction. i wouldnt feel bad for them! i think that if the united states had this type of punishment for child rapist,maybe there wouldnt be so many cases. and i hate the sex offender registry. i think its crap becuase most of them re offend and end up taking someones life becuase they dont want to get caught. and why waste the the money to keep them in prison getting food and college educations. why not just kill them. im sorry if i sound cold,but i just put myself into that mothers shoes that child has been raped or murdered by one of these scumbags.

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:24 am

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-43639120091103
In Saudi Arabia, crucifixion means tying the body of the convict to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after beheading.
A Saudi court of cassation upheld a ruling to behead and crucify a 22-year-old man convicted of raping five children and leaving one of them to die in the desert, newspapers reported on Tuesday.
The convict was arrested earlier this year after a seven-year old boy helped police in their investigation. The child left in the desert after the rape was three years old, Okaz newspaper said.
=================================================================
http://sandgetsinmyeyes.blogspot.com/2009/09/saudis-traditional-form-of-child-abuse.html
According to a recent article, burning children with hot spoons is a pretty common “punishment” used by Saudi mothers to “correct misbehavior”. Of course, instead of calling the act what it is – out and out child abuse – the abusers call it “traditional punishment”.
=================================================================
This is sort of a two pronged discussion. The article on beheading and crucifying the 22 year old - quite honestly had me saying: At least in SOME countries they treat child rapist in a manner that befits their acts.
Quite seriously. FIVE children...the one he left in the desert was 3 years old. If I could behead him twice, I'd do it.
But then... I saw the second discussion....the country that beheads it's child rapist, also utilizes 'traditional punishment' such as burning with spoons...
WTH?
=================================================================
I'm of the opinion, that we are NOT harsh enough on child rapists in the United States. I don't think they can be 'fixed' by counseling, nor any other manner.
Life in Prison is what they get in the US.The Supreme Court banned the death sentence for child rapist.
Justice Anthony Kennedy,(in regards to a case where a man raped an 8 year old to the point that she required internal surgery to fix the damage), cited "evolving standards of decency" that forbid capital punishment for any crime against an individual other than murder.
Justice Samuel Alito wrote the dissent and said that the majority ruled
against the death penalty for child rapists "no matter how young the
child, no matter how many times the child is raped, no matter how many
children the perpetrator rapes, no matter how sadistic the crime, no
matter how much physical or psychological trauma is inflicted and no
matter how heinous the perpetrator's criminal record may be."

Basically - the argument is that allowing the death penalty for child rape, the incentive for an attacker not to kill their victims would be removed.
================================================================
What do you think? Do you think that 'life in prison' is adequate punishment - say for the guy in Saudi - who raped 5 children, and leaving a 3 year old in the desert to die?
Unless he's exposed to the prison population tied down, naked, draped over a barrel for their daily use.... I'm not sure 3 meals, healthcare, cable television and a nice warm bed is 'okay' with my sense of 'justice'.
Yes, it's barbaric...but 5 kids...and leaving a 3 year old to die in the desert?
Do you think there SHOULD be a death penalty for child rapists?

I don't believe in the death penalty and think that the rapists punishment is cruel and unusual and goes against Islam's beliefs of how to treat the dead.

I think that the punishment to children is WAY over the top and disgusting.

I think that when we stop treating people as humans (no matter what their crime) we lose a bit of our humanity.

Exactly what I believe.
Jenny

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Crucify Them...after they are beheaded for child rape