Uhhh....didn't the video show her turn completely away from the stroller?  Like step away and turn around?

nope, sorry. If you're preparing to board the train and you take the break off, you don't let the stroller go, you wait and hold onto it and get on the train. Adjusting one's clothes can wait until after you've boarded the train. That wedgie, that undone fly, that bra strap can wait.
I don't feel any differently than before because the basic principle of maintaining control of one's stroller on a train platform was still ignored.

The brakes weren't on when the stroller rolled onto the tracks.  I'm not sure what the fact that they were on at some other point is useful to demonstrate.
 
It's Train 101.  Don't let go the stroller, any more than you'd let go your un-strollered toddler, if it's in a position to roll to the tracks.  Not that I think this was anything more than a brief, tragic lapse in judgment that I'm sure she'd never repeat.

Nope. Still a horrible, scary mistake, that she will never make again.

i didn't read any previous threads about this. so i don't know/understand the pov that blames the mother.

i lived in philly, took the subway and amtrak frequently. i am an intelligent, educated woman (if i must say so myself lol). i could easily have made the mistake of not understanding vacuum dynamics. i can't judge that mom, not remotely.

as for the brakes.... both of the travel system strollers i have owned, i have experienced on/off brake issues. brakes are on, unexpectedly. brakes are off, when i think i have set them. who invests a lot of time thinking about them? you push the pedal and think the brakes are engaged. well sometimes they aren't, they can be touchy. am i the only one who has experienced this?  eta, i mention this because ime brakes aren't a huge safety issue in most daily life, we put them on but don't completely trust them.  we take them off but sometimes they still catch.  we might easily kick the lock up, or down, without thinking much of it.  it's generally not considered a huge thing.

I don't know any mother who would ever intentionally let their stroller go and roll into the tracks on purpose. I am quite sure this was a horrible tragedy that could have happened to just about anyone. I don't know about you, but I've been on what seems like "flat solid ground" and thought the stroller wouldn't roll because it wasn't on an incline, but sometimes it does. I can understand how maybe she never thought it would move. I am sure this woman will blame herself for the rest of her life for this....so I won't blame her anymore than I'm sure she is blaming herself already. It was awful and tragic. So glad the baby is okay.

me&zooey wrote:Uhhh....didn't the video show her turn completely away from the stroller?  Like step away and turn around?

nope, sorry. If you're preparing to board the train and you take the break off, you don't let the stroller go, you wait and hold onto it and get on the train. Adjusting one's clothes can wait until after you've boarded the train. That wedgie, that undone fly, that bra strap can wait.
I don't feel any differently than before because the basic principle of maintaining control of one's stroller on a train platform was still ignored.

<br/><br/>

This totally reminds of last weeks episode of the office when the video showed Michael falling into the koi pond and Jim leaned out of the way

<julie> wrote:i didn't read any previous threads about this. so i don't know/understand the pov that blames the mother.
i lived in philly, took the subway and amtrak frequently. i am an intelligent, educated woman (if i must say so myself lol). i could easily have made the mistake of not understanding vacuum dynamics. i can't judge that mom, not remotely.
as for the brakes.... both of the travel system strollers i have owned, i have experienced on/off brake issues. brakes are on, unexpectedly. brakes are off, when i think i have set them. who invests a lot of time thinking about them? you push the pedal and think the brakes are engaged. well sometimes they aren't, they can be touchy. am i the only one who has experienced this?  eta, i mention this because ime brakes aren't a huge safety issue in most daily life, we put them on but don't completely trust them.  we take them off but sometimes they still catch.  we might easily kick the lock up, or down, without thinking much of it.  it's generally not considered a huge thing.

 
That was actually one of my huge complaints with my stroller!  I would *think* that the brake was set and it wasn't.  The wheels had to be in a very specific place for the brake to set.  It was annoying!

I think it's a tragic accident and people should pay attention and learn from it.  Around a moving vehicle of any sort,  you need to either have the brakes engaged on the stroller and/or a firm grip on the stroller.
I don't think this woman is horrible or should be drawn and quartered, but it does sound like a mistake that could have been easily prevented.  Very sad.
My only experiences with strollers were with ones that I could clearly see the brakes were engaged when they were.  I could see the little red piece move into the gear thing-a-ma-bob on the tire.  Also, I would always try to roll it as a test to make sure it was engaged.  In any sort of city type area, this country girl would have a firl grip on the stroller anyway for fear of someone snatching it (call me neurotic, I am just not that used to the chaos and sheer numbers of people in an unfamiliar and busy city).

Those big wheel strollers are really, really dangerous as they can roll away quicker than you would expect from a stroller.  There have been a number of tragic accidents in Aust. from them where
the child hasn't survived & many of them have been banned.  I think it was a tragic accident caused by a lapse of judgement that could happen to most people.

me&zooey wrote:Uhhh....didn't the video show her turn completely away from the stroller?  Like step away and turn around?
nope, sorry. If you're preparing to board the train and you take the break off, you don't let the stroller go, you wait and hold onto it and get on the train. Adjusting one's clothes can wait until after you've boarded the train. That wedgie, that undone fly, that bra strap can wait.
I don't feel any differently than before because the basic principle of maintaining control of one's stroller on a train platform was still ignored.

 
No, she was facing the stroller but looking away. She was probably watching the train approach.

I've taken trains before. When they're breaking there's no way you can hear your own thoughts much less anything around you. This does honestly look like an accident to me. I know a lot of people wouldn't think they needed to keep their hands on the pram when the ground is seemingly level like that. She should have been more careful, yes, but I wouldn't call her an idiot or a negligent mother. Everyone makes mistakes and this was by no means a malicious one.

I'm glad the baby's ok.

I feel no differently now then I did before. It's a horrible mistake. You don't let go of the handle in a train station. You just don't. Luckily the baby survived and I'm very confident that the mother will never make that mistake again.

Spark wrote:

Uhhh....didn't the video show her turn completely away from the stroller?  Like step away and turn around?
nope, sorry. If you're preparing to board the train and you take the break off, you don't let the stroller go, you wait and hold onto it and get on the train. Adjusting one's clothes can wait until after you've boarded the train. That wedgie, that undone fly, that bra strap can wait.
I don't feel any differently than before because the basic principle of maintaining control of one's stroller on a train platform was still ignored.

  
No, she was facing the stroller but looking away. She was probably watching the train approach.
I've taken trains before. When they're breaking there's no way you can hear your own thoughts much less anything around you. This does honestly look like an accident to me. I know a lot of people wouldn't think they needed to keep their hands on the pram when the ground is seemingly level like that. She should have been more careful, yes, but I wouldn't call her an idiot or a negligent mother. Everyone makes mistakes and this was by no means a malicious one.
I'm glad the baby's ok.

 
When did I suggest that this wasn't an accident? Or intentional? 

Seriously, I take public transit, including trains, everyday. I live very close to a subway station, and I'm sorry, but maybe it's a cultural thing here, or maybe I'm a 'wisened city folk', but the idea of standing so close to the edge of the platform with a stroller and letting go of it even for a second to do anything is lacking common sense. 
And really, I know the squeal of brakes, the air woosh, the whole shebang, and again, I disagree you can't hear or think about anything---you certainly can. And furthermore if one was to lose complete ability to hear or think upon a train entering a station, is that not yet another reason to hold tightly to your belongings, including your stroller with your child strapped to it? 

Just because she made an honest, stupid mistake doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. She's certainly learned by now the same basic ideas about platform safety that I know---and ultimately her video has made it so people everywhere will now also know basic platform safety.

When did I suggest that this wasn't an accident? Or intentional?
Seriously, I take public transit, including trains, everyday. I live very close to a subway station, and I'm sorry, but maybe it's a cultural thing here, or maybe I'm a 'wisened city folk', but the idea of standing so close to the edge of the platform with a stroller and letting go of it even for a second to do anything is lacking common sense.
And really, I know the squeal of brakes, the air woosh, the whole shebang, and again, I disagree you can't hear or think about anything---you certainly can. And furthermore if one was to lose complete ability to hear or think upon a train entering a station, is that not yet another reason to hold tightly to your belongings, including your stroller with your child strapped to it?
Just because she made an honest, stupid mistake doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. She's certainly learned by now the same basic ideas about platform safety that I know---and ultimately her video has made it so people everywhere will now also know basic platform safety.

i think we're all in agreement that it was a mistake.  hindsight has taught us that.

what i bristle at is the suggestion that it's common knowledge, and the comments from various people about  how an attentive mother never lets go of the stroller handle - as if she was grossly negligent.   

i took the trains a lot.  i could have made this mistake, lots of us could have.  this is an important safety lesson for us all, but i don't think it was (up until now) a common sense issue.

i vote - mistake, yes.  negligent, no.  lacking common sense, no.

<julie> wrote:

When did I suggest that this wasn't an accident? Or intentional?
Seriously, I take public transit, including trains, everyday. I live very close to a subway station, and I'm sorry, but maybe it's a cultural thing here, or maybe I'm a 'wisened city folk', but the idea of standing so close to the edge of the platform with a stroller and letting go of it even for a second to do anything is lacking common sense.
And really, I know the squeal of brakes, the air woosh, the whole shebang, and again, I disagree you can't hear or think about anything---you certainly can. And furthermore if one was to lose complete ability to hear or think upon a train entering a station, is that not yet another reason to hold tightly to your belongings, including your stroller with your child strapped to it?
Just because she made an honest, stupid mistake doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. She's certainly learned by now the same basic ideas about platform safety that I know---and ultimately her video has made it so people everywhere will now also know basic platform safety.

 
i think we're all in agreement that it was a mistake.  hindsight has taught us that.
what i bristle at is the suggestion that it's common knowledge, and the comments from various people about  how an attentive mother never lets go of the stroller handle - as if she was grossly negligent.   
i took the trains a lot.  i could have made this mistake, lots of us could have.  this is an important safety lesson for us all, but i don't think it was (up until now) a common sense issue.
i vote - mistake, yes.  negligent, no.  lacking common sense, no.

 
Here's an analogy maybe you can get on board with: You're standing at a busy street corner, waiting for the light. You've placed your stroller literally a few inches from the curb. Would you release the brakes and let go of your stroller? Of course not, the possibility of it rolling into traffic is too high. 

Also: she said she released the brakes and let go of the stroller. Apparently common sense now does not include basic cause & effect? If you release the brakes, the stroller can move. If you let go of the stroller, it can move. 

Like I said, I take trains on almost a daily basis, and I believe I've said in earlier threads about this topic that you don't see people standing at the edge of the platform with their prams--you stand against the wall, or the back of the platform. I'm glad this was a safety lesson for some: but for me, this is akin to reading the label on the iron that says "Do not use on clothing that you are wearing." Common sense to me, something that needs to be spelled out for others. In the interests of safety, I'm okay with that.

I think she made a mistake that could have happened to any one of us, although people are saying that you never leave the breaks off. Its takes 2 seconds as we have all witnessed. I feel bad for her and cant imagine what went through her mind in those minutes.

<julie> wrote:

When did I suggest that this wasn't an accident? Or intentional?
Seriously, I take public transit, including trains, everyday. I live very close to a subway station, and I'm sorry, but maybe it's a cultural thing here, or maybe I'm a 'wisened city folk', but the idea of standing so close to the edge of the platform with a stroller and letting go of it even for a second to do anything is lacking common sense.
And really, I know the squeal of brakes, the air woosh, the whole shebang, and again, I disagree you can't hear or think about anything---you certainly can. And furthermore if one was to lose complete ability to hear or think upon a train entering a station, is that not yet another reason to hold tightly to your belongings, including your stroller with your child strapped to it?
Just because she made an honest, stupid mistake doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. She's certainly learned by now the same basic ideas about platform safety that I know---and ultimately her video has made it so people everywhere will now also know basic platform safety.

 
i think we're all in agreement that it was a mistake.  hindsight has taught us that.
what i bristle at is the suggestion that it's common knowledge, and the comments from various people about  how an attentive mother never lets go of the stroller handle - as if she was grossly negligent.   
i took the trains a lot.  i could have made this mistake, lots of us could have.  this is an important safety lesson for us all, but i don't think it was (up until now) a common sense issue.
i vote - mistake, yes.  negligent, no.  lacking common sense, no.

 
and you're incredible naive.  Incredibly.
 
Just because something is an accident doens't mean that its not negligent.  In fact I am sure that we can all agree that most accidents are due to some degree of negligence.
 
I know you say you've been on a train before....is that kind if like saying you have black friends?
 
Trust those of us that ride or rode trains every day for years.  You never ever let go of a stroller ever.  Even when the train is not entering the station.  The pitch of some of the subway stations in NYC is so off that a person standing could roll off let alone a baby in a carriage on wheels.
 
So yes it was a mistake and thankfully a mistake that didn't cost her child it's life.  But was she negligent?  100%

me&zooey wrote:

 

Here's an analogy maybe you can get on board with: You're standing at a busy street corner, waiting for the light. You've placed your stroller literally a few inches from the curb. Would you release the brakes and let go of your stroller? Of course not, the possibility of it rolling into traffic is too high.

Let go, for a spit second?  Who knows, maybe I would.
Consider, for a moment, all the things we do with such regularity, that we go through the motions without much thought.  Glancing at our reflection in the rear-view while driving, or looking down to see who is calling on our cell phone, isn't safe, but many people do it, usually without incident.  Taking our eyes off our kids at the mall, just for a second.  Stirring a pot with one hand and a baby in the other.  We engage in lots of little activities that could pose a serious risk to ourselves or our kids.  Usually, nothing happens, but occasionally something tragic does occur, and serves as a safety reminder for the rest of us. 

Also: she said she released the brakes and let go of the stroller. Apparently common sense now does not include basic cause & effect? If you release the brakes, the stroller can move. If you let go of the stroller, it can move.

I don't think cause & effect is the same as common sense. 
You should never salt a cream sauce while it's cooking, it could cause it to break.  Cause & effect.   I make cream sauces often, so I know this.  I don't expect that it is common sense to others, though.

Again, she was on a flat surface.  We don't know whether she ever considered it a possibility that a vacuum could drag the stroller so quickly away from her.  I honestly don't know whether it would have occurred to me.

Like I said, I take trains on almost a daily basis, and I believe I've said in earlier threads about this topic that you don't see people standing at the edge of the platform with their prams--you stand against the wall, or the back of the platform. I'm glad this was a safety lesson for some: but for me, this is akin to reading the label on the iron that says "Do not use on clothing that you are wearing." Common sense to me, something that needs to be spelled out for others. In the interests of safety, I'm okay with that.

Yes, I understand this is basic platform safety for you.

I've seen the comments other people have made at the end of news stories regarding this incident, and lots of people agree with you.  To the extent that many people are blaming the mother, calling her reckless, stupid, negligent.  This is what I do not agree with.  When a child is abducted from their front yard, most people know it is of no value to point to the parents and say, "common sense should have told you not to do that.  I would NEVER allow my child to play in the front yard!"  I think most of us think, "wow, those poor parents.  That could have happened to me.  I need to remember to be more vigilant about protecting my kids."

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:

and you're incredible naive. Incredibly.

Well aren't you just a bundle of sunshine.

I know you say you've been on a train before....is that kind if like saying you have black friends?

bizarre that you would 'go there' with this particular debate.

So yes it was a mistake and thankfully a mistake that didn't cost her child it's life. But was she negligent? 100%

If we want to split hairs, yes you can say she was negligent.  We are ALL negligent, every day, in a variety of ways.  Generally, though, when an honest mistake results in a tragic accident, most of us count our blessings, rather than wag our fingers.

If we want to split hairs, yes you can say she was negligent.  We are ALL negligent, every day, in a variety of ways.  Generally, though, when an honest mistake results in a tragic accident, most of us count our blessings, rather than wag our fingers.

Oh yes believe me, if I were that mother I'd be counting my blessings immensely. I'd also be blaming myself for a grave lapse of judgment that could have resulted in the death of my child.
 
Once again no one here said she did it on purpose or that her negligence was purposeful.  We're simply stating that our opinion of her is that she used poor judgment.
 
And I went there to prove my point that saying you've been on a train before is not valid towards this debate.  I imagine most people have been on a train at some point in their lives. 

<julie> wrote:

 

  

Here's an analogy maybe you can get on board with: You're standing at a busy street corner, waiting for the light. You've placed your stroller literally a few inches from the curb. Would you release the brakes and let go of your stroller? Of course not, the possibility of it rolling into traffic is too high.

 
Let go, for a spit second?  Who knows, maybe I would.
Consider, for a moment, all the things we do with such regularity, that we go through the motions without much thought.  Glancing at our reflection in the rear-view while driving, or looking down to see who is calling on our cell phone, isn't safe, but many people do it, usually without incident.  Taking our eyes off our kids at the mall, just for a second.  Stirring a pot with one hand and a baby in the other.  We engage in lots of little activities that could pose a serious risk to ourselves or our kids.  Usually, nothing happens, but occasionally something tragic does occur, and serves as a safety reminder for the rest of us. 

Also: she said she released the brakes and let go of the stroller. Apparently common sense now does not include basic cause & effect? If you release the brakes, the stroller can move. If you let go of the stroller, it can move.

 
I don't think cause & effect is the same as common sense. 
You should never salt a cream sauce while it's cooking, it could cause it to break.  Cause & effect.   I make cream sauces often, so I know this.  I don't expect that it is common sense to others, though.
Again, she was on a flat surface.  We don't know whether she ever considered it a possibility that a vacuum could drag the stroller so quickly away from her.  I honestly don't know whether it would have occurred to me.

Like I said, I take trains on almost a daily basis, and I believe I've said in earlier threads about this topic that you don't see people standing at the edge of the platform with their prams--you stand against the wall, or the back of the platform. I'm glad this was a safety lesson for some: but for me, this is akin to reading the label on the iron that says "Do not use on clothing that you are wearing." Common sense to me, something that needs to be spelled out for others. In the interests of safety, I'm okay with that.

 
Yes, I understand this is basic platform safety for you.
I've seen the comments other people have made at the end of news stories regarding this incident, and lots of people agree with you.  To the extent that many people are blaming the mother, calling her reckless, stupid, negligent.  This is what I do not agree with.  When a child is abducted from their front yard, most people know it is of no value to point to the parents and say, "common sense should have told you not to do that.  I would NEVER allow my child to play in the front yard!"  I think most of us think, "wow, those poor parents.  That could have happened to me.  I need to remember to be more vigilant about protecting my kids."

1. Ruining a cream sauce is in no way analogous to not being in control of one's stroller. One can spoil dinner, whereas the other has everything to do with the safety of your child. I put the safety of my child as a foremost, if not the primary concern of mine, particularly while traveling. I know I wouldn't let go or step on the brakes and turn away because it is contrary to the safety of my child, and I have the experience of waiting for and boarding trains with a stroller to know I haven't in the past. 
2.  I think that if the baby had died, some of the responses here would be very different. And, judging merely by the replies in this thread and ones before it (that you missed), there is no 'most of us'--it was quite divided, with a large number of people saying both "poor parents" And "common sense". The two are not mutually exclusive.
3. I see even less value in imagining up various scenarios to excuse this parent's action or lack thereof than you seem to see in acknowledging that common sense would have avoided the situation altogether.

me&zooey wrote:     
Here's an analogy maybe you can get on board with: You're standing at a busy street corner, waiting for the light. You've placed your stroller literally a few inches from the curb. Would you release the brakes and let go of your stroller? Of course not, the possibility of it rolling into traffic is too high. 

I definitely think that works as an analogy.

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:

If we want to split hairs, yes you can say she was negligent. We are ALL negligent, every day, in a variety of ways. Generally, though, when an honest mistake results in a tragic accident, most of us count our blessings, rather than wag our fingers.

 
Oh yes believe me, if I were that mother I'd be counting my blessings immensely. I'd also be blaming myself for a grave lapse of judgment that could have resulted in the death of my child.

would you need the public at large to compound your feelings of guilt by discussing how "negligent" you were and how they would never, ever have made such a stupid mistake?

I.Am.Who.I.am wrote:And I went there to prove my point that saying you've been on a train before is not valid towards this debate. I imagine most people have been on a train at some point in their lives. 

um, ok.  if you say so.

my whole point was that people who do things with regularity (driving a car, riding a subway, what have you) can very easily slip into autopilot mode and make mistakes. 
but i gather my point is invalidated by the past-tense of my train ridership???  lol.

me&zooey wrote:

1. Ruining a cream sauce is in no way analogous to not being in control of one's stroller.[/quote]

The analogy is one of experience and knowledge, not in degree of risk.

3. I see even less value in imagining up various scenarios to excuse this parent's action or lack thereof than you seem to see in acknowledging that common sense would have avoided the situation altogether.

i have absolutely no idea what your point is.

my point, if i haven't been clear, is there are two considerations:

a) we don't know whether she had any basis for knowledge that a vacuum could whisk the stroller away so quickly.  ergo, not a clear "common sense" issue.

b) we all do stupid things that could have tragic results.  for some reason, this particular woman is on the receiving end of a lot more judgement and criticism than the other types of mistakes that people commonly make.

<julie> wrote:

 

 
1. Ruining a cream sauce is in no way analogous to not being in control of one's stroller.

The analogy is one of experience and knowledge, not in degree of risk.

The degree of risk is a major factor in one's decision making, no? It is in mine. If I lack experience and knowledge, and the degree of risk is high, I would be more cautious, not less. Again, that seems to be a common sense response.

3. I see even less value in imagining up various scenarios to excuse this parent's action or lack thereof than you seem to see in acknowledging that common sense would have avoided the situation altogether.

 
i have absolutely no idea what your point is.
my point, if i haven't been clear, is there are two considerations:
a) we don't know whether she had any basis for knowledge that a vacuum could whisk the stroller away so quickly.  ergo, not a clear "common sense" issue.
b) we all do stupid things that could have tragic results.  for some reason, this particular woman is on the receiving end of a lot more judgement and criticism than the other types of mistakes that people commonly make.[/quote]

a) We also have no basis for assumption that she didn't know about the 'vaccuum'. See my comment above about risk being a factor is decision making and utilizing 'common sense'. 
b) The victim of her stupid (your word, not mine) actions was her completely helpless and vulnerable infant. Thus, reason for the judgement and criticism. 

I think I've been pretty clear. I think this woman neglected to use common sense and miraculously, her child survived rolling onto the train tracks and being hit by a train. Imagined scenarios of what she did or didn't think, know, or expect are irrelevant, IMO, as it seems 'common sense' is irrelevant in your opinion.